World Ages and Spiritual Development

I started to read again a book I read years ago because of my interest in Hindu astrology, expounding upon the theory of World Ages as taught in the Self-Realization Fellowship, specifically Paramhansa Yogananda's teacher, Shri Yukteshwar. Many of these thoughts resonated with me now as they did years ago when I was researching my book. It was a singularly heartening experience, and I went back a third time now to check which of the thoughts, language patterns and focuses were those that alighted such enthusiasm in me.

The framework is that the Earth goes through cycles of precession (described by SY as 24,000 years) which make up what we call in the West the Great Platonic Year. The Cow of Dharma stands upon four legs in Satya Yuga, the Age of Truth, the Age of Unity, three legs in Treta Yuga - the Age of Intuition and Powers - then upon two legs in Dwapara Yuga, the Age of Energy, and one leg only through Kali Yuga, which is perhaps the Age of Darkness and Annihilation. Kali is the shortest age, Dwapara is twice that long, Treta is three times, Satya is four, then the cycle repeats in a reverse order.

While many Hindu sects say we are in a giant Kali Yuga age, lasting for thousands of years or even millions, not Shri Yukteshwar. He says we are actually through the darkest period, which he puts squarely in the middle of the Middle Ages. The darkest descending age started with the Roman Empire, and the turning point was 500 A.D., he says by 1700 mankind is already in Dwapara Yuga. Despite the sad history of British colonialism in India, SY makes a point saying that Western civilization is specifically tied to Dwapara developments.

I do not think evolution itself is cyclical, though no doubt there is a cycle in the Earth's history. The rotation of the Earth's axis is cyclical, the Pole Star is not the same as it was 6,000 years ago (Vega). This cycle is estimated recently at 27,770 years, a few years ago when I was writing my book on Hindu astrology, it was generally agreed as 25,920 years. The turning point is close to the starting of the Age of Pisces (which means that the Sun at the time of the spring equinox is found in that division on March 21st), if you use Hindu software, it comes to 286 A.D.

The odd thing is that many of SY's suggestions resonate very deeply with me though I do not think basically the whole thing is cyclical. Nor should we leave cosmic development and other civilizations out of consideration.

As a preparation, I re-read Chapters 7-8 and 9 of my favorite book War in Heaven to see if there are things worthy of mentioning which may be across the board. After being steeped in that brew of healthy vegetables for years, I am practically immune to ideologies and theologies though still interested intellectually.

I found a few common points.

For example, religion in Dwapara Yuga (which is now, since the Age of Science started, most heavily since about 1700), becomes individualistic. Each person will compile the mix of whatever works for him or her, and there is no need for outside guidance. Religious intolerance is Kali mode of operation (if you change a few letters in the names of angels, I will start cutting you up to small pieces and so on.) But mass religion altogether will be soon out of favor.

Science and technology will not stop, and it is backwards to demand to return to some sort of organic peasant heaven which probably never existed in its pure form. Though wars and environmental pollution is no doubt a test of survival, I find myself in disagreement with most of my friends these days because I think they are mostly scared by modernity and many espouse a positively paranoid tendency about technology in general, and Western lifestyle is another thing... (whatever they mean by that, but no doubt the lack of old rules from various schizophrenic holy books, the edicts of male chauvinist imams etc. belong to the opposite of Western craftiness).

However, as Dwapara man (by man I do not mean males only) awakens to energy, including the subtle energies of your body - prana, chi etc. - feats so far impossible start to happen. The book brings heartening examples of sports and martial arts. And even things like - I am curing my flu now with homeopathy, and a bunch of organic garlic which has ten times more energy than the normal store bought one. I could feel the energy already when I first looked at these small bulbs.

Beyond this is Treta Yuga, where everyone is psychic. Telepathy is the order of the day. As these ages progress in the book (based on SY's book The Holy Science published in England in the nineteenth century), there are longer and longer lifespans and less and less people on the planet.

Quite frankly, I got stuck at the descriptions of Dwapara Yuga and Treta Yuga because there were so many heartening examples - plus SpiritRebel's insistence that we ought to hone our skills in these not so remote realms of possibility, as well as the day-to-day maintenance of self-healing practices which both of us are known to practice but which are difficult to describe in human words. Sanksrit is a special language but the essence cannot be codified - still, even Sanskrit was not much used in the darkest of Kali Yuga. While space is conquered in Dwapara Yuga, time is conquered in Treta Yuga. That is not easy to imagine, and here the two approaches may differ, but one good suggestion is that if you have several incarnations in various Yukteshwar Ages, and already Treta is beyond the gates of time, obviously your own incarnation in Satya, where you don't even need to pray or say mantras or use language, is watching you at this very moment in struggling on this planet with the basics of emancipation and equality.

There is an appellation for the transitional ages - a hundred years here, four hundred at most - Sandhi, which is BTW the name of the conjunction of sounds in the Sanskrit language.

If you start calculating, and correlate Western science with what he brings from Indian tradition, perhaps the turning point could be a few hundred years away, and the movement that started to end the darkest period of mankind (which he calls totally materialistic) started in earnest in the 13th century.

Well, I am going to stop here and be back as your curiosity is awakened and maintained, and I keep on finding which thoughts inspired me so greatly here and how they correspond to an ever-changing image of the future...

Another remark is that captured my attention in a positive way: Shri Yukteshwar and Yoganananda both predict that  lot of healing will be done in the coming new era by "rays" and vibrations. Electricity is important but it is only the basics.

Well, I have been experimenting with a cheap, computer-driven Rife healing system for years and used various combinations to cut down on viruses and sometimes bacteria and also mycoplasma or fungi.

Rife originally thought that each pathogenic microorganism had a frequency - from audio freqs to carrier wave frequencies like FM radio by Megahertz - and you could observe the microorganisms die when given the right frequency though that does not harm the human host. He allegedly had many successful cancer treatments using cathode rays but the FDA and the AMA really took this personally and so his lab was set on fire with his special microscope equipment no one was able to reproduce later.

Several schools of thought sprang up in the absence of the original founder (who died as a penniless, persecuted alcoholic), most experimented with audible frequencies (20 to 20,000 Hz) which do have increasing anecdotic evidence for curing colds, diabetes, bone growth, and many other things in various variations - together, sequenced, square waves cut in hlf etc. People experiment with this stuff in Australia, the UK, Canada, Germany and the US.

Another thing I thought I would mention: a Turkish doctor who had a slightly alternative way of analyzing the electrical communication of the chemistry of cells invented a bed of microwave radiation with which advanced cancer is treated and the Medical Association of Italy has extended a permit to him - quietly, this revolution is undergoing in the present. The inventor-doctor is dead as he was very old already (that happens to people) but he still has a clinic even in Pristina, Kosovo.

reg, #1, re: "I started to read again a book I read years ago because of my interest in Hindu astrology, expounding upon the theory of World Ages as taught in the Self-Realization Fellowship, specifically Paramhansa Yogananda's teacher, Shri Yukteshwar. Many of these thoughts resonated with me now as they did years ago when I was researching my book. It was a singularly heartening experience, and I went back a third time now to check which of the thoughts, language patterns and focuses were those that alighted such enthusiasm in me. The framework is that the Earth goes through cycles of precession (described by SY as 24,000 years) which make up what we call in the West the Great Platonic Year. The Cow of Dharma stands upon four legs in Satya Yuga, the Age of Truth, the Age of Unity, three legs in Treta Yuga - the Age of Intuition and Powers - then upon two legs in Dwapara Yuga, the Age of Energy, and one leg only through Kali Yuga, which is perhaps the Age of Darkness and Annihilation. Kali is the shortest age, Dwapara is twice that long, Treta is three times, Satya is four, then the cycle repeats in a reverse order. While many Hindu sects say we are in a giant Kali Yuga age, lasting for thousands of years or even millions, not Shri Yukteshwar. He says we are actually through the darkest period, which he puts squarely in the middle of the Middle Ages. The darkest descending age started with the Roman Empire, and the turning point was 500 A.D., he says by 1700 mankind is already in Dwapara Yuga. Despite the sad history of British colonialism in India, SY makes a point saying that Western civilization is specifically tied to Dwapara developments. I do not think evolution itself is cyclical, though no doubt there is a cycle in the Earth's history. The rotation of the Earth's axis is cyclical, the Pole Star is not the same as it was 6,000 years ago (Vega). This cycle is estimated recently at 27,770 years, a few years ago when I was writing my book on Hindu astrology, it was generally agreed as 25,920 years. The turning point is close to the starting of the Age of Pisces (which means that the Sun at the time of the spring equinox is found in that division on March 21st), if you use Hindu software, it comes to 286 A.D. The odd thing is that many of SY's suggestions resonate very deeply with me though I do not think basically the whole thing is cyclical. Nor should we leave cosmic development and other civilizations out of consideration."

IMO, it's important to realize that what you just quoted is only one of literally hundreds of cosmological theories that have been published within Hinduism over the last three thousand years, and a myriad of other interpretations have been made. In fact, when people conversant with the modern scientific theories describing evolution through mutation and natural selection read through Hindu cosmology, they often claim to find support for them.

re: "As a preparation, I re-read Chapters 7-8 and 9 of my favorite book War in Heaven to see if there are things worthy of mentioning which may be across the board. After being steeped in that brew of healthy vegetables for years, I am practically immune to ideologies and theologies though still interested intellectually. I found a few common points. For example, religion in Dwapara Yuga (which is now, since the Age of Science started, most heavily since about 1700), becomes individualistic. Each person will compile the mix of whatever works for him or her, and there is no need for outside guidance. Religious intolerance is Kali mode of operation (if you change a few letters in the names of angels, I will start cutting you up to small pieces and so on.) But mass religion altogether will be soon out of favor. Science and technology will not stop, and it is backwards to demand to return to some sort of organic peasant heaven which probably never existed in its pure form. Though wars and environmental pollution is no doubt a test of survival, I find myself in disagreement with most of my friends these days because I think they are mostly scared by modernity and many espouse a positively paranoid tendency about technology in general, and Western lifestyle is another thing... (whatever they mean by that, but no doubt the lack of old rules from various schizophrenic holy books, the edicts of male chauvinist imams etc. belong to the opposite of Western craftiness). However, as Dwapara man (by man I do not mean males only) awakens to energy, including the subtle energies of your body - prana, chi etc. - feats so far impossible start to happen. The book brings heartening examples of sports and martial arts. And even things like - I am curing my flu now with homeopathy, and a bunch of organic garlic which has ten times more energy than the normal store bought one. I could feel the energy already when I first looked at these small bulbs. Beyond this is Treta Yuga, where everyone is psychic. Telepathy is the order of the day. As these ages progress in the book (based on SY's book The Holy Science published in England in the nineteenth century), there are longer and longer lifespans and less and less people on the planet. Quite frankly, I got stuck at the descriptions of Dwapara Yuga and Treta Yuga because there were so many heartening examples - plus SpiritRebel's insistence that we ought to hone our skills in these not so remote realms of possibility, as well as the day-to-day maintenance of self-healing practices which both of us are known to practice but which are difficult to describe in human words. Sanksrit is a special language but the essence cannot be codified - still, even Sanskrit was not much used in the darkest of Kali Yuga. While space is conquered in Dwapara Yuga, time is conquered in Treta Yuga. That is not easy to imagine, and here the two approaches may differ, but one good suggestion is that if you have several incarnations in various Yukteshwar Ages, and already Treta is beyond the gates of time, obviously your own incarnation in Satya, where you don't even need to pray or say mantras or use language, is watching you at this very moment in struggling on this planet with the basics of emancipation and equality. There is an appellation for the transitional ages - a hundred years here, four hundred at most - Sandhi, which is BTW the name of the conjunction of sounds in the Sanskrit language. If you start calculating, and correlate Western science with what he brings from Indian tradition, perhaps the turning point could be a few hundred years away, and the movement that started to end the darkest period of mankind (which he calls totally materialistic) started in earnest in the 13th century. Well, I am going to stop here and be back as your curiosity is awakened and maintained, and I keep on finding which thoughts inspired me so greatly here and how they correspond to an ever-changing image of the future..."

Everything you just speculated about makes sense to me in terms of what I said above...

#2, re: "Another remark is that captured my attention in a positive way: Shri Yukteshwar and Yoganananda both predict that a lot of healing will be done in the coming new era by 'rays' and vibrations. Electricity is important but it is only the basics. Well, I have been experimenting with a cheap, computer-driven Rife healing system for years and used various combinations to cut down on viruses and sometimes bacteria and also mycoplasma or fungi Rife originally thought that each pathogenic microorganism had a frequency - from audio freqs to carrier wave frequencies like FM radio by Megahertz - and you could observe the microorganisms die when given the right frequency though that does not harm the human host. He allegedly had many successful cancer treatments using cathode rays but the FDA and the AMA really took this personally and so his lab was set on fire with his special microscope equipment no one was able to reproduce later. Several schools of thought sprang up in the absence of the original founder (who died as a penniless, persecuted alcoholic), most experimented with audible frequencies (20 to 20,000 Hz) which do have increasing anecdotic evidence for curing colds, diabetes, bone growth, and many other things in various variations - together, sequenced, square waves cut in hlf etc. People experiment with this stuff in Australia, the UK, Canada, Germany and the US. Another thing I thought I would mention: a Turkish doctor who had a slightly alternative way of analyzing the electrical communication of the chemistry of cells invented a bed of microwave radiation with which advanced cancer is treated and the Medical Association of Italy has extended a permit to him - quietly, this revolution is undergoing in the present. The inventor-doctor is dead as he was very old already (that happens to people) but he still has a clinic even in Pristina, Kosovo."

From what I've been able to channel on this subect, the "rays" and "vibrations" you have been speculating about are NOT related to anything in the electromagnetic spectrum, but an entirely different matter/energy continuum that the "War in Heaven" channelings discuss in terms of "astral" matter and energy.

I am writing my questions and remarks in separate answers for the sake of others who might read into this.

re: "hundreds of cosmologies"
You probably know this better as you lived longer among people who were interested in various Hindu cosmological ideas. I met a few Yoga practitioners and meditation practitioners from other schools than the best known Krishna and Transcendental Meditation movements while in my twenties and thirties in the US plus I handled many types of literature in the bookstore where I worked for a few years. Most of these sects and teachers cited cosmologies from various swamis and yogis, 99% of these stated we were in the Dark Ages or Kali Yuga. Most of the numbers were so beyond my head that I stopped counting the various millions and trillions of years.

Basically the only exception I found to the rule of 1. being in Kali Yuga 2. operating with unrealistically high numbers was the foreword of the book "The Holy Science" which I have not handled at the time.

A partial exception was the TM movement where nobody knew much about timekeeping until the 80's but then many people were asking the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi (MMY) about how we can establish an "Age of Enlightenment" if we are Kali Yuga. The MMY's answer was clever: there is a sideways direction towards a small Enlightenment Age in the middle of the Kali Yuga. The mood of many of the earlier developments was similar to Yogananda's school though.

One very dogmatic Buddhist sect I heard about was also predicting the darkest age right now - with people living only until ten years old and practicing cannibalism. (But all the people who belonged to this sect seemed to me seriously off their rockers.)

Are you aware of other Indian or Hindu cosmologies which take Western development into their view at all?

re: "From what I've been able to channel on this subect, the "rays" and "vibrations" you have been speculating about are NOT related to anything in the electromagnetic spectrum, but an entirely different matter/energy continuum that the "War in Heaven" channelings discuss in terms of "astral" matter and energy."

This is closer to what inspired me in this book. Remote viewing and hands-on-healing are two areas where I experienced this.

I wonder how strong the interaction is between the two worlds.

The MMY's movement was full of various caveats of the material world having an effect on "subtle realities" and "karmic effects". For example, you were not supposed to blow out a candle but wave it away with your hand.

Some people who experiment with the type of electric healing I described also wondered if the treatments had a far less specific effect than the original researchers supposed - in other words, applying these currents simply stimulates "the body electric" in some way. Sure, electricity is material and it is the crudest type of energy even according to the SRF folks but the question is whether there is a continuum or if there is a rift and there is absolutely nothing between the two worlds (astral and physical) that connects them.

The vast majority of these caveats are simply derived from Hindu ritual practices and some from common sense Ayurvedic observation.

War in Heaven parts and forum dialogues we had over the years say all of these will be the subject of science in some remote future. Which means to me that there is no basic contradiction between science and psychic or subtle effects.

Homeopathy for example is based on a different principle than using antibiotics and it works in some cases - presently there is a new campaign to root it out completely in the UK and Hungary for example because it is "unscientific". Which means that isolated chemicals in materially measurable ways cannot be shown to work in repeated experiments - which is granted by all homeopaths readily. Now when I ask some of my skeptic friends how can dogs and newborn babies respond to homeopathy (as I have seen in many cases) their answer is usually that it is by the suggestion of those people who apply or prescribe the "remedies".

When I heard that thought I realized that my world view was far more earthbound and pedantic than theirs. Suppose they are right though.
If this is merely a sophisticated web of suggestions, perhaps some of us should learn to suggest healing this way to many other beings - whether using "remedies" or not.

One experience that ties to these subtle healing experiences is with the virus I have almost every year. There is something illusory about flu viruses - they are extremely dramatic (this past week they practically stopped me from working and I had to rely on help for simple household maintenance which I rarely do).

I can definitely do something against flu viruses or turning them around - and if I try the same methods for bacterial infections they rarely do anything at all. The only thing is that I have to concentrate on this completely and I cannot pay attention to anything outside at all.

As you said about your own self-healing or anti-pain practices, it is difficult to describe what I do. I could say that at some levels I concentrate upon "the spin of my basic cellular pattern" which is altered by the virus. Mantras and music rekindled internally are useful sometimes since a virus is basically like a melody with a false tone inserted in it.

What inspired me most is the parallel between Kali Yuga (2nd style theocratic religions then 4th style stemming out), the scientific progress along with the freedom of the individual - Dwapara Yuga started around 1700, but after the beginning two centuries, it really starts at 1900, then Treta Yuga. These are layers of consciousness. Dwapara is the energy age, where it is not only science and technology that flower but also individual freedom and individual awareness of energy. Some commentators call it the Electric Age. Religious fanaticism and nationalism are Kali Yuga remainders, so it makes sense that in a few hundred years - preferably sooner - we will have a decisive victory over Theocracy. Egypt and Catal Hüyük as well as the Indus valley civilizations are classified in Steinmetz's book as descending Dwapara - I just translated a book on alternative archaeology and it seems preposterous to suppose that they were anything less than a developed society. No one can deny the sharp turn downwards later - Emperor Chin Shi banned all books in China around 200 B.C, the Library of Alexandria was burned around 200 something A.D. and the resulting barbaric ages wiped all out that we had in antique history. Less so, but a similar degradation was taking place in India after the Moslem conquest.
Now in the end of Dwapara, though people will be much less in number, we may even conquer the Solar System. Treta Yuga will be an age of magic. We will understand divine magnetism down to a scientific level. Telepathy will be widespread and people will communicate differently - a whisper goes a long way just like now and a shout is ignored.
I'm a Treta Yuga person - a world citizen with some amount of telepathy which I see every day with clients who come to NLP and Indian astrology. Sanskrit is supposed to come from the previous Treta Yuga, in fact there is a merging of magic and science coded in that language, much fallen into disuse during Kali.
During the transitional age to Dwapara: the Reformation, the Renaissance, the reappraisal of Greek myths, book printing which sparked the reformation greatly.
The most cogent argument I find in SteinmeTz's study of Sri Yukteswaar is that there is undeniably a giant fall of quality before Christianity took its form in the final Catholic Church. Similar thoughts can be seen all over the world.
I differ as to Satya Yuga when he brings up the unquestionably high quality of cave paintings at Chauvet, France, and many unexplained mysteries. The Antikythera device. Exact stone calendars marking the equinoxes and the solstices, including the Moon's phases nowhere asexact as in Egypt, Giza.

Another thing: while in Dwapara people become aware of martial practices and humans ---for the understanding Treta the authors bring in the placebo arguments as well as the idea of multiple personalities who appear with widely divergent physical marks on their bodies: one i asthmatic, the other is not, one can see well with glasses, etc.So we can instantly heal ourselves from the Spiritual Internet.
The place where I diverge is Satya Yuga - the theorists tie it to the idea of a non-technological man. I would rather bring in the vision at the beginning of War in Heaven with perfect technology no even visible where you live - in sunbelts in space for example.

The other weak point is exactness. Nowadays precession is estimated to revolve around 25,920 years, so that is when the tropical year would fall on the Autumn Equinox at the same time as the precessional wheel of constellations. Yukteswar calculated this year as 499 A.D. but today's Indian software calculates it to 285 AD. Yukteswar took the entire cycle to be 24,000 years. The famous astronomy constant Egyptians used for the Earth-Sun distance was a multiplier of 1,111,111.00. That yields 26,666 years. That means, calculating with the extended value, that we get 2,160 years for an equal zodiac sign - translated: the sun will rise in Egypt in the constellation Pisces from 285 A.D. on.
Essence: if the same Yuga circle is used, the real values may look like this:
Dwapara started in 1589 (with starting Dwapara achievements such as the discovery of circulation round 1600 and the end of a transitional age was from 1789. The French Revolution is what catalyzed into a first bona fide Dwapara experience. This explains why inventions and the Industrial Revolution happened earlier. It will last until 2343.
I expect the great die-off will happen during this time and some people will be living in undergound cities. And space stations.

regmelocco wrote:

I am writing my questions and remarks in separate answers for the sake of others who might read into this.

re: "hundreds of cosmologies"
You probably know this better as you lived longer among people who were interested in various Hindu cosmological ideas. I met a few Yoga practitioners and meditation practitioners from other schools than the best known Krishna and Transcendental Meditation movements while in my twenties and thirties in the US plus I handled many types of literature in the bookstore where I worked for a few years. Most of these sects and teachers cited cosmologies from various swamis and yogis, 99% of these stated we were in the Dark Ages or Kali Yuga. Most of the numbers were so beyond my head that I stopped counting the various millions and trillions of years.

Basically the only exception I found to the rule of 1. being in Kali Yuga 2. operating with unrealistically high numbers was the foreword of the book "The Holy Science" which I have not handled at the time.

A partial exception was the TM movement where nobody knew much about timekeeping until the 80's but then many people were asking the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi (MMY) about how we can establish an "Age of Enlightenment" if we are Kali Yuga. The MMY's answer was clever: there is a sideways direction towards a small Enlightenment Age in the middle of the Kali Yuga. The mood of many of the earlier developments was similar to Yogananda's school though.

One very dogmatic Buddhist sect I heard about was also predicting the darkest age right now - with people living only until ten years old and practicing cannibalism. (But all the people who belonged to this sect seemed to me seriously off their rockers.)

Are you aware of other Indian or Hindu cosmologies which take Western development into their view at all?

All I know about religion in India these days comes from reading the notes that accompany the operational mantra videos I watch and articles that I find by doing Google searches on various key words I find in them. It looks to me like "Western development" is making massive inroads into just about all the Easter Occult groups that are now growing up within the traditional framework of Hinduism, which has always been quite supportive of such inovations. However, I have no idea how much of this is just an Eastern version of virtual reality game playing, and how much represents genuine innovation in spiritual beliefs and psychic practices.

regmelocco wrote:

re: "From what I've been able to channel on this subect, the "rays" and "vibrations" you have been speculating about are NOT related to anything in the electromagnetic spectrum, but an entirely different matter/energy continuum that the "War in Heaven" channelings discuss in terms of "astral" matter and energy."

This is closer to what inspired me in this book. Remote viewing and hands-on-healing are two areas where I experienced this.

I wonder how strong the interaction is between the two worlds.

The MMY's movement was full of various caveats of the material world having an effect on "subtle realities" and "karmic effects". For example, you were not supposed to blow out a candle but wave it away with your hand.

Some people who experiment with the type of electric healing I described also wondered if the treatments had a far less specific effect than the original researchers supposed - in other words, applying these currents simply stimulates "the body electric" in some way. Sure, electricity is material and it is the crudest type of energy even according to the SRF folks but the question is whether there is a continuum or if there is a rift and there is absolutely nothing between the two worlds (astral and physical) that connects them.

The vast majority of these caveats are simply derived from Hindu ritual practices and some from common sense Ayurvedic observation.

War in Heaven parts and forum dialogues we had over the years say all of these will be the subject of science in some remote future. Which means to me that there is no basic contradiction between science and psychic or subtle effects.

Homeopathy for example is based on a different principle than using antibiotics and it works in some cases - presently there is a new campaign to root it out completely in the UK and Hungary for example because it is "unscientific". Which means that isolated chemicals in materially measurable ways cannot be shown to work in repeated experiments - which is granted by all homeopaths readily. Now when I ask some of my skeptic friends how can dogs and newborn babies respond to homeopathy (as I have seen in many cases) their answer is usually that it is by the suggestion of those people who apply or prescribe the "remedies".

When I heard that thought I realized that my world view was far more earthbound and pedantic than theirs. Suppose they are right though.
If this is merely a sophisticated web of suggestions, perhaps some of us should learn to suggest healing this way to many other beings - whether using "remedies" or not.

re: "This is closer to what inspired me in this book. Remote viewing and hands-on-healing are two areas where I experienced this. I wonder how strong the interaction is between the two worlds. The MMY's movement was full of various caveats of the material world having an effect on 'subtle realities' and 'karmic effects'. For example, you were not supposed to blow out a candle but wave it away with your hand."

Western occult literature, especially works with heavy influence from Cabalistic writings, is full of the same kind of speculation. However, the branches of Western occultism derived mainly from European Paganism, especially the Greek Mystery Cult, seem to teach that figurative interpretation of symbols gives the magician power over literal interpretations. And it looks to me like this fits in with the WiH channelings.

re:"Some people who experiment with the type of electric healing I described also wondered if the treatments had a far less specific effect than the original researchers supposed - in other words, applying these currents simply stimulates "the body electric" in some way. Sure, electricity is material and it is the crudest type of energy even according to the SRF folks but the question is whether there is a continuum or if there is a rift and there is absolutely nothing between the two worlds (astral and physical) that connects them. The vast majority of these caveats are simply derived from Hindu ritual practices and some from common sense Ayurvedic observation. War in Heaven parts and forum dialogues we had over the years say all of these will be the subject of science in some remote future. Which means to me that there is no basic contradiction between science and psychic or subtle effects."

Yes! This was something my Guides kept stressing over and over during the WiH channelings, but it's also important to realize that this day has not yet arrived here on Earth.

re:"Homeopathy for example is based on a different principle than using antibiotics and it works in some cases - presently there is a new campaign to root it out completely in the UK and Hungary for example because it is 'unscientific'. Which means that isolated chemicals in materially measurable ways cannot be shown to work in repeated experiments - which is granted by all homeopaths readily. Now when I ask some of my skeptic friends how can dogs and newborn babies respond to homeopathy (as I have seen in many cases) their answer is usually that it is by the suggestion of those people who apply or prescribe the 'remedies'. When I heard that thought I realized that my world view was far more earthbound and pedantic than theirs. Suppose they are right though. If this is merely a sophisticated web of suggestions, perhaps some of us should learn to suggest healing this way to many other beings - whether using 'remedies' or not."

My take on this is that there is just as much evidence that psychic/astral realities influence suggestion as the other way around, and that it makes a lot of sense for all or use who truly seek spiritual wisdom to keep our minds open on this.

regmelocco wrote:

One experience that ties to these subtle healing experiences is with the virus I have almost every year. There is something illusory about flu viruses - they are extremely dramatic (this past week they practically stopped me from working and I had to rely on help for simple household maintenance which I rarely do).

I can definitely do something against flu viruses or turning them around - and if I try the same methods for bacterial infections they rarely do anything at all. The only thing is that I have to concentrate on this completely and I cannot pay attention to anything outside at all.

As you said about your own self-healing or anti-pain practices, it is difficult to describe what I do. I could say that at some levels I concentrate upon "the spin of my basic cellular pattern" which is altered by the virus. Mantras and music rekindled internally are useful sometimes since a virus is basically like a melody with a false tone inserted in it.

re: "One experience that ties to these subtle healing experiences is with the virus I have almost every year. There is something illusory about flu viruses - they are extremely dramatic (this past week they practically stopped me from working and I had to rely on help for simple household maintenance which I rarely do). I can definitely do something against flu viruses or turning them around - and if I try the same methods for bacterial infections they rarely do anything at all. The only thing is that I have to concentrate on this completely and I cannot pay attention to anything outside at all. As you said about your own self-healing or anti-pain practices, it is difficult to describe what I do. I could say that at some levels I concentrate upon 'the spin of my basic cellular pattern' which is altered by the virus. Mantras and music rekindled internally are useful sometimes since a virus is basically like a melody with a false tone inserted in it."

Yes! I really identify with trying to identify with 'the spin of my basic cellular pattern'. My Guides say this ties in with the info in the WiH channelings that there is a subtle but operational interplay between our astral DNA and our physical DNA on a cellular level. The scienctific terminology to discuss this doesn't exist yet, but I get the impression this will happen fairly soon.

regmelocco wrote:

What inspired me most is the parallel between Kali Yuga (2nd style theocratic religions then 4th style stemming out), the scientific progress along with the freedom of the individual - Dwapara Yuga started around 1700, but after the beginning two centuries, it really starts at 1900, then Treta Yuga. These are layers of consciousness. Dwapara is the energy age, where it is not only science and technology that flower but also individual freedom and individual awareness of energy. Some commentators call it the Electric Age. Religious fanaticism and nationalism are Kali Yuga remainders, so it makes sense that in a few hundred years - preferably sooner - we will have a decisive victory over Theocracy. Egypt and Catal Hüyük as well as the Indus valley civilizations are classified in Steinmetz's book as descending Dwapara - I just translated a book on alternative archaeology and it seems preposterous to suppose that they were anything less than a developed society. No one can deny the sharp turn downwards later - Emperor Chin Shi banned all books in China around 200 B.C, the Library of Alexandria was burned around 200 something A.D. and the resulting barbaric ages wiped all out that we had in antique history. Less so, but a similar degradation was taking place in India after the Moslem conquest.
Now in the end of Dwapara, though people will be much less in number, we may even conquer the Solar System. Treta Yuga will be an age of magic. We will understand divine magnetism down to a scientific level. Telepathy will be widespread and people will communicate differently - a whisper goes a long way just like now and a shout is ignored.
I'm a Treta Yuga person - a world citizen with some amount of telepathy which I see every day with clients who come to NLP and Indian astrology. Sanskrit is supposed to come from the previous Treta Yuga, in fact there is a merging of magic and science coded in that language, much fallen into disuse during Kali.
During the transitional age to Dwapara: the Reformation, the Renaissance, the reappraisal of Greek myths, book printing which sparked the reformation greatly.
The most cogent argument I find in SteinmeTz's study of Sri Yukteswaar is that there is undeniably a giant fall of quality before Christianity took its form in the final Catholic Church. Similar thoughts can be seen all over the world.
I differ as to Satya Yuga when he brings up the unquestionably high quality of cave paintings at Chauvet, France, and many unexplained mysteries. The Antikythera device. Exact stone calendars marking the equinoxes and the solstices, including the Moon's phases nowhere asexact as in Egypt, Giza.

re: "What inspired me most is the parallel between Kali Yuga (2nd style theocratic religions then 4th style stemming out), the scientific progress along with the freedom of the individual - Dwapara Yuga started around 1700, but after the beginning two centuries, it really starts at 1900, then Treta Yuga. These are layers of consciousness. Dwapara is the energy age, where it is not only science and technology that flower but also individual freedom and individual awareness of energy. Some commentators call it the Electric Age. Religious fanaticism and nationalism are Kali Yuga remainders, so it makes sense that in a few hundred years - preferably sooner - we will have a decisive victory over Theocracy. Egypt and Catal Hüyük as well as the Indus valley civilizations are classified in Steinmetz's book as descending Dwapara - I just translated a book on alternative archaeology and it seems preposterous to suppose that they were anything less than a developed society. No one can deny the sharp turn downwards later - Emperor Chin Shi banned all books in China around 200 B.C, the Library of Alexandria was burned around 200 something A.D. and the resulting barbaric ages wiped all out that we had in antique history. Less so, but a similar degradation was taking place in India after the Moslem conquest. Now in the end of Dwapara, though people will be much less in number, we may even conquer the Solar System. Treta Yuga will be an age of magic. We will understand divine magnetism down to a scientific level. Telepathy will be widespread and people will communicate differently - a whisper goes a long way just like now and a shout is ignored.
I'm a Treta Yuga person - a world citizen with some amount of telepathy which I see every day with clients who come to NLP and Indian astrology. Sanskrit is supposed to come from the previous Treta Yuga, in fact there is a merging of magic and science coded in that language, much fallen into disuse during Kali. During the transitional age to Dwapara: the Reformation, the Renaissance, the reappraisal of Greek myths, book printing which sparked the reformation greatly. The most cogent argument I find in SteinmeTz's study of Sri Yukteswaar is that there is undeniably a giant fall of quality before Christianity took its form in the final Catholic Church. Similar thoughts can be seen all over the world. I differ as to Satya Yuga when he brings up the unquestionably high quality of cave paintings at Chauvet, France, and many unexplained mysteries. The Antikythera device. Exact stone calendars marking the equinoxes and the solstices, including the Moon's phases nowhere asexact as in Egypt, Giza."

You have a lot more intellectual knowledge about all this than I do right now, so all I can say in reply is that everything you say seems supported by my own memories of both reading and practical experience.

regmelocco wrote:

Another thing: while in Dwapara people become aware of martial practices and humans ---for the understanding Treta the authors bring in the placebo arguments as well as the idea of multiple personalities who appear with widely divergent physical marks on their bodies: one i asthmatic, the other is not, one can see well with glasses, etc.So we can instantly heal ourselves from the Spiritual Internet.
The place where I diverge is Satya Yuga - the theorists tie it to the idea of a non-technological man. I would rather bring in the vision at the beginning of War in Heaven with perfect technology no even visible where you live - in sunbelts in space for  example.

re: "Another thing: while in Dwapara people become aware of martial practices and humans ---for the understanding Treta the authors bring in the placebo arguments as well as the idea of multiple personalities who appear with widely divergent physical marks on their bodies: one i asthmatic, the other is not, one can see well with glasses, etc.So we can instantly heal ourselves from the Spiritual Internet. The place where I diverge is Satya Yuga - the theorists tie it to the idea of a non-technological man. I would rather bring in the vision at the beginning of War in Heaven with perfect technology no even visible where you live - in sunbelts in space for example."

Again, I defer to your intellectual knowledge, and can only say that it seems in agreement with my own conclusions about these matters formed over the course of a long life.

regmelocco wrote:

The other weak point is exactness. Nowadays precession is estimated to revolve around 25,920 years, so that is when the tropical year would fall on the Autumn Equinox at the same time as the precessional wheel of constellations. Yukteswar calculated this year as 499 A.D. but today's Indian software calculates it to 285 AD. Yukteswar took the entire cycle to be 24,000 years. The famous astronomy constant Egyptians used for the Earth-Sun distance was a multiplier of 1,111,111.00. That yields 26,666 years. That means, calculating with the extended value, that we get 2,160 years for an equal zodiac sign - translated: the sun will rise in Egypt in the constellation Pisces from 285 A.D. on.
Essence: if the same Yuga circle is used, the real values may look like this:
Dwapara started in 1589 (with starting Dwapara achievements such as the discovery of circulation round 1600 and the end of a transitional age was from 1789. The French Revolution is what catalyzed into a first bona fide Dwapara experience. This explains why inventions and the Industrial Revolution happened earlier. It will last until 2343.
I expect the great die-off will happen during this time and some people will be living in undergound cities. And space stations.

re: "The other weak point is exactness. Nowadays precession is estimated to revolve around 25,920 years, so that is when the tropical year would fall on the Autumn Equinox at the same time as the precessional wheel of constellations. Yukteswar calculated this year as 499 A.D. but today's Indian software calculates it to 285 AD. Yukteswar took the entire cycle to be 24,000 years. The famous astronomy constant Egyptians used for the Earth-Sun distance was a multiplier of 1,111,111.00. That yields 26,666 years. That means, calculating with the extended value, that we get 2,160 years for an equal zodiac sign - translated: the sun will rise in Egypt in the constellation Pisces from 285 A.D. on.
Essence: if the same Yuga circle is used, the real values may look like this:
Dwapara started in 1589 (with starting Dwapara achievements such as the discovery of circulation round 1600 and the end of a transitional age was from 1789. The French Revolution is what catalyzed into a first bona fide Dwapara experience. This explains why inventions and the Industrial Revolution happened earlier. It will last until 2343.
I expect the great die-off will happen during this time and some people will be living in undergound cities. And space stations.

My Guides say that calculations of this sort are steps in the wrong direction, because they are based on the idea that the universe is creating itself according to a single plan or paradigm, when in reality the evolutionary process is much more complex than this. Plus, the predictions you're citing are assuming that there won't be outside intervention with the process ... which of course there always has been and always will be. And they also predict that the great die-off is just a few years away, and in fact could begin at almost any time.

This is an excellent and worthwhile topic, and it surprises me sometimes to read my own input from a night before just as I read through your answers.
To be sure, I need to affirm two thought forms and interpret a third one here in case others read into this (as I'm sure they will)...

INSPIRATION (and interpretation) - I think Sri Yukteswar was directed to say what he did at this point in history as if he interpreted sacred scriptures, by the same spiritual forces you and I are interacting with.
It sounds like what he say is literal and cyclical, but if you read the essence (the book "Holy Science" is not long and we are talking mostly about its foreword), the inspiration is about the coming phases of development which could be foreseen a hundred years ago, not about a cyclical pattern, though it has a loose connection of reference to Hindu astrology (where the larger a cycle is, the more meaningless it is). Just like with Karl Marx about capitalism, there is a set of specific directions of development which he was channeling very clearly (different parts as with Marx), and the entire puzzle is not laid out - nor CAN it ever be. Part of the message of SY seems to be a marriage of East and West, and that individual liberty, science and technology are the ways towards development for a long time to come (in contrast to what all neo-Theocratic sects or anti-moderns say), though there is an important further stage of telepathy and powers about which we know more from the other side of the world. A. C. Clarke was writing about this very subject in his 1953 science fiction book "Childhood's End.
Which brings me to the other major point: INTERVENTION as you point out, is very important. By cosmic intelligences from other planets and lives wiser than our own but committed deeply to helping our species grow up.

Basically the third point which requires clarification is that a completely cyclical view is untenable if you grasp the idea of a Universe as self-evolving - either as a consequence of modern science (linguistics included, not only physics), or that of studying Taoism, Heraclitus or those rare thinkers that stressed this aspect. If any set of laws could apply to the entire Universe, those laws would be almost like in another dimension from physical matter. Such a Universe could not really be a Universe because the very set of laws would be missed out from it.
This is also what the experience of people having a lucky meditation or, for example, an NLP discovery of states of unity confirm. And this was the main reason why I went to hear philosophy at the age of 22 instead of continuing with Latin...

reg, #16

re: "This is an excellent and worthwhile topic, and it surprises me sometimes to read my own input from a night before just as I read through your answers. To be sure, I need to affirm two thought forms and interpret a third one here in case others read into this (as I'm sure they will)..."

I'm very impressed with how well this conversation has gone so far. Neither one of us has much idea what is going to become the subject of analysis next, but we both just plod forward trying to understand ideas and opinions that most people shy away from because they are too controversial...

re: "INSPIRATION (and interpretation) - I think Sri Yukteswar was directed to say what he did at this point in history as if he interpreted sacred scriptures, by the same spiritual forces you and I are interacting with. It sounds like what he say is literal and cyclical, but if you read the essence (the book 'Holy Science' is not long and we are talking mostly about its foreword), the inspiration is about the coming phases of development which could be foreseen a hundred years ago, not about a cyclical pattern, though it has a loose connection of reference to Hindu astrology (where the larger a cycle is, the more meaningless it is). Just like with Karl Marx about capitalism, there is a set of specific directions of development which he was channeling very clearly (different parts as with Marx), and the entire puzzle is not laid out - nor CAN it ever be. Part of the message of SY seems to be a marriage of East and West, and that individual liberty, science and technology are the ways towards development for a long time to come (in contrast to what all neo-Theocratic sects or anti-moderns say), though there is an important further stage of telepathy and powers about which we know more from the other side of the world. A. C. Clarke was writing about this very subject in his 1953 science fiction book "Childhood's End."

This all makes perfect sense to me when I apply the same standards of interpretation to it that I apply to other "futurist" writngs produced all over the world during the 19th and 20th centuries. It looks to me like practically all of these writers were receiving telepathic input from what I call the Invisible College and using it to make rough predictions about the future evolution of human civilization on Earth, but didn't realize that their insights and theories fit into a pattern that they hade almost no comprehension of. This was certainly true of Marx, who thought of himself as primarily the advocate of economic revolution and the enemy of the various economic reform movements of the time, and of most of the people who based their conception of what the future society should be like mostly on psychology and social science. They all seemed to "overlook the forest because there were too many trees in the way".

re: "Which brings me to the other major point: INTERVENTION as you point out, is very important. By cosmic intelligences from other planets and lives wiser than our own but committed deeply to helping our species grow up."

The intervention theme has been an important part of both philosophical and spiritual writings throughout history, but until recently the emphasis was mostly on trying to figure out who was doing it and why, rather than concentrating on what was being taught and how. It wasn't really until the rather sudden appearance of modern Western Spiritualism in the 1800's that channeling information about human life both here and hereafter became paramount, and a little later that Westerners equipped with this approach started studying yoga and other methods of developing their psychic powers in hopes of increasing the quality and quality of the information flow from the Other Side.

re: "Basically the third point which requires clarification is that a completely cyclical view is untenable if you grasp the idea of a Universe as self-evolving - either as a consequence of modern science (linguistics included, not only physics), or that of studying Taoism, Heraclitus or those rare thinkers that stressed this aspect. If any set of laws could apply to the entire Universe, those laws would be almost like in another dimension from physical matter. Such a Universe could not really be a Universe because the very set of laws would be missed out from it. This is also what the experience of people having a lucky meditation or, for example, an NLP discovery of states of unity confirm. And this was the main reason why I went to hear philosophy at the age of 22 instead of continuing with Latin..."

This brings us down to the present, and not that many people have yet realized that we actually have the informational tools for building a true civilization on this planet, and that our primary goal from here on out should be using them, not trying to figure out how they fit into any kind of cycle.

One of the inspiring thoughts I was sent while reading this book is about non-physical methods. The example brought to us by Steinmetz and al who wrote the book on Yukteswar's cycles is experience with people with multiple personalities. I know from NLP that suggestions and metaphors can change a person even physically if they fit into their wording and world view, but multiple personalities can have different strengths and weaknesses. One has to wear glasses, another does not. A mole can disappear with the change. I haven't checked sources for that but I will. Now as viruses are basically DNA strains and our bodies constantly check DNA - one single cell can have as long as two meters long in the core wrapped up - gene therapy seeks these days to repair telomerase and other things, replacing faulty genes - in the Treta Yuga model we could all do this psychically. I have experiences with hands-on healing (Reiki) and crystals, vibrations, mantras. Deep in psychedelic trances I discovered (I think it was with Salvia Divinorum) that I am basically a DNA pattern that swirls and dances like a spin left and right alternately. Tibetan death exit (Pho Wa) exercises also target this in a visualization manner and after a certain intensity they do get very effective chakra healing devices.
Since advanced individuals even according to the cyclic model presented in the book can act like those in a higher age we can safely assume that all the layers of consciousness are present at all times throughout these "ages" - one simply has to wake them up. This is like when in another thread we were discussing brain wave frequencies and your Guides suggested that deeper (gamma and delta) wave states can actually coexist with awake states (beta range) this simply points to a new relationship between the conscious and the unconscious mind individually and collectively. It makes sense also that a few advanced individuals can help tens of thousands of people with their "vibrations" as many ancient beliefs attest in their various archaic mindset (shamans, meditators and Yoga practitioners as well as practitioners of various prayer systems. About the latter, I found Hindu and Sanskrit "prayer" mantras more effective than anything else but this may also be because I also believe that a major "intervention" occurred at the time Sansksrit and Vedic civilization started in the Himalayan region, thousands of years ago.
Yukteswar also believes in this, though he does not specifically state that extraterrestrial intelligences play a part. He puts this intervention in his system of time cycles - this would be in Descending Treta Yuga then specifically formulated mantras were crystallized during Descending Dwapara Yuga (which is roughly the same age as what produced Egyptian time cycle measurements and proportions clearly showing the values of Pi and Phi as well as the nearest Sun-Earth distance along with a simple lunisolar calendar observable to the common man or woman via geometrical shadows). It remains a mystery how much intervention was targeted at Earth peoples and how much the influences were diluted later. Himalayan survived, but almost didn't in the Middle Ages with Moslem and Tartar invasions. Egypt then Greece was emerging to a higher synthesis but then the Dark Ages gradually descended. So we know far less about them as about live Indian culture and magic... It is interesting that the spirit of Western Occultism cannot be left out of the stimulating modern equation and the older parts used to date themselves back to Egypt as well as Hebrew.

reg, #18

re: "One of the inspiring thoughts I was sent while reading this book is about non-physical methods. The example brought to us by Steinmetz and al who wrote the book on Yukteswar's cycles is experience with people with multiple personalities. I know from NLP that suggestions and metaphors can change a person even physically if they fit into their wording and world view, but multiple personalities can have different strengths and weaknesses. One has to wear glasses, another does not. A mole can disappear with the change. I haven't checked sources for that but I will."

It's also important to point out that modern parapsychological and occult research has produced similar results. Hypnotic regressions of the sort that generated the "Bridey Murphy" case are one good set of examples.

re: "Now as viruses are basically DNA strains and our bodies constantly check DNA - one single cell can have as long as two meters long in the core wrapped up - gene therapy seeks these days to repair telomerase and other things, replacing faulty genes - in the Treta Yuga model we could all do this psychically. I have experiences with hands-on healing (Reiki) and crystals, vibrations, mantras. Deep in psychedelic trances I discovered (I think it was with Salvia Divinorum) that I am basically a DNA pattern that swirls and dances like a spin left and right alternately. Tibetan death exit (Pho Wa) exercises also target this in a visualization manner and after a certain intensity they do get very effective chakra healing devices."

Towards the end of his life, Tim Leery got heavily involved with the idea that all sorts of great secrets are encoded in DNA, especially human DNA, and as far as I know, there has yet to be any serious professional research into this, but I wouldn't be surprised that there's something to this line of thinking.

re: "Since advanced individuals even according to the cyclic model presented in the book can act like those in a higher age we can safely assume that all the layers of consciousness are present at all times throughout these 'ages' - one simply has to wake them up. This is like when in another thread we were discussing brain wave frequencies and your Guides suggested that deeper (gamma and delta) wave states can actually coexist with awake states (beta range) this simply points to a new relationship between the conscious and the unconscious mind individually and collectively. It makes sense also that a few advanced individuals can help tens of thousands of people with their 'vibrations' as many ancient beliefs attest in their various archaic mindset (shamans, meditators and Yoga practitioners as well as practitioners of various prayer systems)."

Some of the material I channeled to supplement the information in the WiH book has dealt with these subects, and I suspect you've read most of it on the RS Community over the years.

"About the latter, I found Hindu and Sanskrit 'prayer' mantras more effective than anything else but this may also be because I also believe that a major "intervention" occurred at the time Sansksrit and Vedic civilization started in the Himalayan region, thousands of years ago. Yukteswar also believes in this, though he does not specifically state that extraterrestrial intelligences play a part. He puts this intervention in his system of time cycles - this would be in Descending Treta Yuga then specifically formulated mantras were crystallized during Descending Dwapara Yuga (which is roughly the same age as what produced Egyptian time cycle measurements and proportions clearly showing the values of Pi and Phi as well as the nearest Sun-Earth distance along with a simple lunisolar calendar observable to the common man or woman via geometrical shadows). It remains a mystery how much intervention was targeted at Earth peoples and how much the influences were diluted later. Himalayan survived, but almost didn't in the Middle Ages with Moslem and Tartar invasions. Egypt then Greece was emerging to a higher synthesis but then the Dark Ages gradually descended. So we know far less about them as about live Indian culture and magic... It is interesting that the spirit of Western Occultism cannot be left out of the stimulating modern equation and the older parts used to date themselves back to Egypt as well as Hebrew."

It's also important to realize that both Western and Eastern occultists wrote down large amounts of important information about the nature of spiritual reality starting about 500 BC and continuing down to the present day. A surprising amount of this material is now beginning to surface, and I expect this trend to accelerate as the Information Age progresses.

As an astrologer of an Oriental type I need to clarify a couple of things for the sake of those that are unfamiliar with the statements I made on earlier threads. I have an absolutely open mind, and I have been experimenting, as Jung experimented with the I Ching oracle and alchemy. It is an archaic system of psychology, self-knowledge through karmic patterns. Karmic patterns are loose and abstract and it is in no way predicted how you will react to them. Indians say there are fixed karmas (but there are mantras to work against their bad fruition), there are those that are intermediate - you have to replace one motive in your life with another to change it, and there are simple challenges. Yes, astrology is to some extent about prediction, but that subject is handled wiser in the West, where we lost touch with the sidereal constellations and in exchange astrology got to be the exclusive domain of occultists. I often look at this in a looser framework, and regard timing as an omen. E.g. I was recently counselling a man in CA to change jobs because the enterprise is facing disaster in this year if things go on as they did for years. However, the owner changed (he reacted well to his Saturn period starting) and instead of continuing the same pattern, he works industriously every day plus he is ready to take out a family loan to cover bank loans which were looming to mature this year. Plus my friend hasn't looked for other employment during a time when this was favorable for him, so now he may have to stick with the results for the time being. This is different from what my early hypothesis suggested but the theme remains - now the owner will have to take care not to get sick due to overwork and stress during the coming months. Another person was likely to face a period of confinement in a hospital or a jail or a mental institution but she instead chose to meditate every day for long hours. So the theme was really there but it manifested in a different way. There are many similar systems and in later ages we may have to explain the archetypes ordering in psychology. But the element of the new, the transcendent and the direct intervention can always be there...
Oracles are freer from the mediumistic POV. So since this Oriental lunar mansion system is close to my map of symbols, I worked out a card oracle to use based on Hindu astrology...
As far as 500 B.C. is concerned, that is really interesting. Kali Yuga was already in earnest acc. to the original counting which I dispute a bit. Sages had the vibe man times that earlier ages were wiser but they had to commit their knowledge into writing. Lao Tzu, Heraclitus, etc. Then the Library of Alexandria was burned by Romans and Emperor Chin Shi Huang-Ti ordered all the books annihilated in China. The Persians burned thousands of volumes of the Magi...
As far as the timing, these days the cycle of precession is supposed to last for 25,770 years, a few years ago it was estimated to be 25,920 which is  neat occult number. Yukteswar specifically states that the turning point of Kali Yuga (ascending) would be when the two zodiacs coincided - 499 A.D. Modern software puts this mostly around 285 A.D. so in other words, the modern age begins sooner than with the orthodox believers. If the cycle is slightly longer, the periods will be accordingly. It is not worthwhile to establish exact calculations especially with the absolute cyclicity he seemed to advocate but the Age of Energy, Science and Reason would then start around 1573-74, instead of the 1700 he roundly proposed. Indeed, the discovery of the circulation of blood by Harvey, magnetism and Newton's Laws would fit more into that pattern than the official version. The two-hundred year transitional period would start around 1773-74 instead of 1900. Taking into view that he looks at the French and the American Revolutions as quintessentially Dwapara development, this would fit the upward picture... Yet I think the whole thing could be more of a spiral with interruptions than a real cyclical pattern...

reg, #20:

re:"As an astrologer of an Oriental type I need to clarify a couple of things for the sake of those that are unfamiliar with the statements I made on earlier threads. I have an absolutely open mind, and I have been experimenting, as Jung experimented with the I Ching oracle and alchemy. It is an archaic system of psychology, self-knowledge through karmic patterns. Karmic patterns are loose and abstract and it is in no way predicted how you will react to them. Indians say there are fixed karmas (but there are mantras to work against their bad fruition), there are those that are intermediate - you have to replace one motive in your life with another to change it, and there are simple challenges. Yes, astrology is to some extent about prediction, but that subject is handled wiser in the West, where we lost touch with the sidereal constellations and in exchange astrology got to be the exclusive domain of occultists. I often look at this in a looser framework, and regard timing as an omen. E.g. I was recently counselling a man in CA to change jobs because the enterprise is facing disaster in this year if things go on as they did for years. However, the owner changed (he reacted well to his Saturn period starting) and instead of continuing the same pattern, he works industriously every day plus he is ready to take out a family loan to cover bank loans which were looming to mature this year. Plus my friend hasn't looked for other employment during a time when this was favorable for him, so now he may have to stick with the results for the time being. This is different from what my early hypothesis suggested but the theme remains - now the owner will have to take care not to get sick due to overwork and stress during the coming months. Another person was likely to face a period of confinement in a hospital or a jail or a mental institution but she instead chose to meditate every day for long hours. So the theme was really there but it manifested in a different way. There are many similar systems and in later ages we may have to explain the archetypes ordering in psychology. But the element of the new, the transcendent and the direct intervention can always be there..."

I grew up around occultists who used Westerm Astrology as a divining tool, as they also used card reading, palm reading, etc., but I don't think they took any of these very seriously. However, most of them DID put serious credence in psychic readings and workings of various kinds, especially those done by Spiritulists. I think the difference was that divinatory practices yielded results that tended to be vague and "soft" whereas the operational practices sometimes produced much more coherent experiences, some of which were supported with evidence of one kind or another.

re: "Oracles are freer from the mediumistic POV. So since this Oriental lunar mansion system is close to my map of symbols, I worked out a card oracle to use based on Hindu astrology..."

When various people in the Fifties counterculture started using the I Ching Oracle, my relatives came to simiar conclusions about it, but I never developed any enthusiasm for it myself, because I was already trying to exercise and develop my channeling faculties as much as possible. And when people in the "new" counterculture of the Sixties and Seventies started putting a lot of creative effort into designing their own Tarot decks, I was already facing forward towards the WiH channelings and backed away completely.

re: "As far as 500 B.C. is concerned, that is really interesting. Kali Yuga was already in earnest acc. to the original counting which I dispute a bit. Sages had the vibe man times that earlier ages were wiser but they had to commit their knowledge into writing. Lao Tzu, Heraclitus, etc. Then the Library of Alexandria was burned by Romans and Emperor Chin Shi Huang-Ti ordered all the books annihilated in China. The Persians burned thousands of volumes of the Magi..."

I felt very relieved a few years back when historians and linguistic experts seemed to be finding more and more evidence that the book-burnings you mentioned didn't destroy as much actual information as most people have traditionally believed. And some are now speculating that the root cause of the cultural and spiritual revolutions that started around 500 BC in both the West and the East may have been the spread of the alphabetic scripts based on a punic model. These made it easy enough to learn to read and write that more and more of the people who actually did things started keeping written records.

re: "As far as the timing, these days the cycle of precession is supposed to last for 25,770 years, a few years ago it was estimated to be 25,920 which is a neat occult number. Yukteswar specifically states that the turning point of Kali Yuga (ascending) would be when the two zodiacs coincided - 499 A.D. Modern software puts this mostly around 285 A.D. so in other words, the modern age begins sooner than with the orthodox believers. If the cycle is slightly longer, the periods will be accordingly. It is not worthwhile to establish exact calculations especially with the absolute cyclicity he seemed to advocate but the Age of Energy, Science and Reason would then start around 1573-74, instead of the 1700 he roundly proposed. Indeed, the discovery of the circulation of blood by Harvey, magnetism and Newton's Laws would fit more into that pattern than the official version. The two-hundred year transitional period would start around 1773-74 instead of 1900. Taking into view that he looks at the French and the American Revolutions as quintessentially Dwapara development, this would fit the upward picture... Yet I think the whole thing could be more of a spiral with interruptions than a real cyclical pattern..."

This all makes a lot of sense to me, but it looks to me like there was a fairly smooth transition from the late Middle Ages to the Modern Era that started around the time of the Norman conquest of Britain. This was based more on technological innovations, especially in the transportation field, than it was on anything purely intellectual. People were traveling further and further, making lots of money through trade as they did it, and this stimulated the whole economy to look for better ways to produce things. And even more important, increased travel tended to broaden everyone's horizons beyond the communities they lived in.

RR#15 : "My Guides say that calculations of this sort are steps in the wrong direction, because they are based on the idea that the universe is creating itself according to a single plan or paradigm, when in reality the evolutionary process is much more complex than this. Plus, the predictions you're citing are assuming that there won't be outside intervention with the process ... which of course there always has been and always will be. And they also predict that the great die-off is just a few years away, and in fact could begin at almost any time. "

"Great" die off... a few years awa..., at any time...   .... i feel RR and his guides have such a sense of humor zha would make any pessimis roll on ze floor ! yeah we mus keep on atking for all, and good

Let me share my thoughts about this passage then I will move on to the others later on when I have time again, because you touch upon many interesting subjects in one single post.

re: "I grew up around occultists who used Westerm Astrology as a divining tool, as they also used card reading, palm reading, etc., but I don't think they took any of these very seriously. However, most of them DID put serious credence in psychic readings and workings of various kinds, especially those done by Spiritulists. I think the difference was that divinatory practices yielded results that tended to be vague and "soft" whereas the operational practices sometimes produced much more coherent experiences, some of which were supported with evidence of one kind or another."

I also grew up among a smaller continuum of such people... Later I analyzed language with the help of modern linguistics at college then learned NLP for years which analyzes individuals' language as well as internal perceptions as long as they can (and despite the contrary popular belief among conspiracy circles, is primarily not a study of suggestion but also its opposite, called the meta-model of language).
I have examined and tested various agents of divination as well as natal astrology for a long time. I have since a long time entertained the idea of synchronicity as well as meaningful dreams, some of which refer to an individual's "archetypal" balance through symbols, and some of which are concrete and will happen. I have a few cases in my life when a complete sequence of specific events about which I had no conscious knowledge was shown to me, e.g. my first day in the US which I dreamed about one year before it happened, exactly as shown.

I was walking through a pedestrian overpass leading into the glass case of a small and quiet shopping mall near the sea harbor in complete silence with my wife, and on the second floor an American friend proceeded to buy me a gift of a folk ornament made of wood. Now this actually happened when the priest of the church that sponsored us as refugees took us after sleeping off the arrival and the welcome party to the Waterside mall of Norfolk, VA. His friend worked at a small store selling curios and upon learning we were refugees in America, he gave me a Jacob's Ladder which I still have. The architecture was exactly like in my dream, including the pedestrian overpass, and it struck me like a lightning as I first held the Jacob's Ladder in my hand that I had dreamed all this back in Budapest around one year before, when everything was uncertain and I had never even heard of the existence of this minor US city from anyone.

I agree that both divination (which is synchronous) and natal astrology refer through archaic symbols to a very complex web of self-weaving phenomena and they bear scientific study, but they are very different. The background statement of natal astrology is that certain things were decided before you were born, and this is reflected in the arrangement of the planets (which Greeks, Indians etc. thought were major archetypal influences - the gods and goddesses of polytheism).

I have not been around mediums much, this was much more widespread in the U.S. than this part of Europe at the time. Now there are honest psychics here, however, my experience with very specific predictions is scant at best.

Obviously, a specific, concrete warning or clear intuition of a specific event important in the life of an individual or a collective would be far superior to any system of access. However, I must point out that what charmed me about Eastern natal astrology was precisely that it has very specific predictive lines among the general symbols. It was not merely about character or psychology as most solar zodiac-based Western astrology is. One of the core tenets of comparing the two systems of thought in modern times is that since most Western astrology does not use precession, but uses a tropical zodiac, the very constellations it uses (Aries, Taurus etc.) are simply in a different place now in the sky as they were roughly two thousand years ago when classics such as Ptolemy were written. The difference now is estimated to be about 24 degrees out of a 30-degree "sign". It takes about 72 years for any star to rise one degree away.

Also, that the use of certain techniques such as planetary periods known in India and in the Tibetan schools of kartsi (which took it from India) has been lost when all non-Catholic knowledge was banned in some parts of the Middle Ages. Along with some of the Greek classics, Western Europe later retrieved astrology through Arabs, in an incomplete version, though one can safely say that folk beliefs associating herbs and materials to planets did continuously survive. As a corollary, most modern Western astrologers do not predict at all, they use a more general language of meaningful karmic themes etc., and some declare openly that it is a mistake to expect any prediction, even conditionally. Indian astrology, in contrast, has been continuous, it is strongly predictive. Major events can be sometimes avoided (by Vedic practices, monastic activities etc.) but most astrologers do not talk about karmic themes, challenges etc. - they use a medieval, practical language - such as "you will have a child next year" or "thieves will take your money next February." In contrast to Western astrology, where everyone is assumed to be a student, Indian and Tibetan astrologers are strongly discouraged from using any jargon of astrology or educating the client.
The general understanding is that many things can be changed by rituals, mantras, offerings, retreating and renunciation but certain things are "fated to happen."

I was attracted to this study around 1990, the very first time I saw a Hindu jyotish pandit, who took one cursory look at his DOS-printout, and the data I provided (DOB-POB within 10 minutes, plus the meager facts in writing that I was married, had one child, practiced TM meditation and was an artisan).

After a few minutes of studying my chart, and checking something in the Brihat Parasara Hora Sastra edition which I also have, he pronounced that my parents separated around the time I was one year old (tensions were there at one year, my dad started an affair a few months after I was one year old and by the time I was one and a half, they finalized they would divorce), and that I left my country of birth, Hungary, in the fall of 1984, specifically in October or November.

That was shockingly accurate. They could not have known which year I left, let alone the month. I actually left with a one-month tourist visa on October 23, 1984, ready to live as a political refugee in the Western world for years, along with my first wife, chancing until the last minute that border guards would discover traces that we would be "dissidents" and turn us back, or that someone from family or friends would possibly have reported our intent not to return to the authorities - which would have meant they could have arrested us back at the Austrian border, we would face criminal charges, suspended from college and banned from exiting the country for years.

We were so relieved to have crossed the Austrian border some time after 12:00 a.m. October 24 that we stopped in the open country a few hundred meters away to celebrate, we were jumping around our friends' car who drove us through the border while he had a much-awaited cigarette. In fact, I did not return to visit Hungary in the next seven years. We intentionally targeted the night of October 23rd - we correctly surmised that all authorities including border guards would be paying maximum attention to possible celebrations of the then underground anniversary of the 1956 Revolution against Soviet power instead of going through our stuff with the exactness they sometimes displayed. Had they done so, they would have discovered for example a six months' supply of contraceptives and tampons which would be surely not a sign of a 30-day journey around Europe.

Back to my first Hindu astrology reading, I confirmed to the pandit that both of these events were true, and asked what it was hanging on whether it was October or November. He was baffled first, not used to such questions, then explained patiently that I had provided a birth time within a ten-minute margin. Had we known the exact minute and second, we would know the dayof my departure.

Now this event does not depend upon any vague therapeutic abstraction.
After I began to study the books and software myself, I realized that it depended upon one single factor, the starting of a nineteen-year-long planetary period, completely unknown in Western astrology, calculated from one thing only: the exact position of the Moon at birth.

I was a textbook example.

Western natal astrology works and has worked differently.
My teacher of spiritual Yoga, Buddhism, Jung and other stuff, who was a member of my grandmother's occultist circle, and did astrology then for forty-some years, said many times when I inquired during my last year at home that my chart showed I could live in a foreign country for quite a long time, possibly repeatedly, and also shared with me that her intuition would put me in an English-speaking country (so she strongly backed my decision to become a major in English and American studies), but when I pressed her about the time frame, as it was a major decision then requiring at least a year of preparation, she said that if she wanted to be honest, according to astrology that was uncertain, it could be over the next years (I was 22), or it could be as late as in my forties.

I started to study Eastern astrology with an open mind, as an experiment, already having the experience of using the oracle of the I Ching. I read about the latter in a book about the Rolling Stones in New York City in 1982.

To this day I think natal astrology is also an experiment with probability, although it is built very differently from oracles where you draw cards or use the sticks or coins. Sometimes the logic of natal astrology can be isolated from generalities, suggestions or interpretations, and it clearly shows some elements and not others. To be sure, spiders do not share human abstractions about countries, so in a sense Austria and Hungary are abstractions, but not at the same logical level as "a sense of responsibility" etc.

It is possible though that placing more emphasis upon direct contact with inner guides or synchronicity would develop a more sensibility. I am trying to focus on this more and more but I also see that I access many intuitive powers through looking at the mesh of natal astrology. I also think that many things crystallize conditionally and part of the universe works in a non-local way. It would be inorganic and mechanical if we isolated an axis of time in our thoughts and maintained that anything relating to future probabilities is by definition impossible until it actually happens.

If we maintained that things are preordained and all you have to do is learn the plan according to which they will work, that would be again mechanical (as we discussed not long ago). We would also discount future attractors etc., and all the stuff from science that Terence McKenna liked to compare with his deep internal experiences of psychedelics, such as Ralph Abraham, Karl Pribram, and Rupert Sheldrake.

One specific prediction we are grappling with presently is that last year a medium visited my teacher of astrology Maria (who considers us equals not really disciples) to analyze her chart. She did not say outright that she was psychic. Maria said it to her, and also that this could relate to her profession - whereupon she confirmed that indeed, she was a professional psychic. Maria brought up that aside from astrology, she herself had also had a psychic sense stronger than the usual but not as developed as to be professional. The psychic lady then asked her if she was given any signs of "the earthquake of 2016" - a catastrophic earthquake hitting Budapest, the capital of Hungary. Maria was really surprised. She said yes, she had had recurrent dreams of this earthquake for years (I can confirm this), and that all her Guides were revealing to her was that it would happen on a New Moon day in the constellation of Rohini, but she had been uncertain even as to the exact year. (Indeed, she said this it already in 2011 or 2012 several times.) A new moon in Rohini (the middle 13°20' of sidereal Taurus) does not happen every year; we had a new moon there in 2011 and 2014 in the first days of June, and we will again on June 5, 2016.

The psychic said it was definitely in 2016, over the summer, then Maria said if she added these two bits of information together, on an Indian astrological basis she would say it would be that new moon day: June 5th, 2016. The psychic agreed it was indeed likely, and then they met I think one more time to discuss the subject.

Ever since then, this prediction has been floating around, and I am trying to keep an open mind about it plus watch my dreams and signs from my inner Guides.

Needless to say, I went to pages on seismology to check. To my surprise, seismologists say that it is possible to have a catastrophic earthquake in Budapest, though we have no record of major devastation in or near the capital during the past few hundred years. But anything above 6 would lead to worldwide headlines like Nepal. This article with pictures is in Hungarian, but you can look into it with Google translate:EQ Budapest seismology

The minor fault line is south of Budapest on Csepel Island. The article says the largest EQ in the modern history of Hungary was on January 12, 1956 (also a new moon day), with a strength of 5.6: a few people died, about 200 had to live in temporary housing for months, the interior of a church was demolished in Taksony, south of Budapest, along with most of the residential buildings in Dunaharaszti plus its railway station. Had the epicenter been a few kilometers further north though, it would have been hitting densely populated areas of the capital of two million residents, though, like last year in Kathmandu, Nepal - as it was, 3,144 residential houses were damaged in Dunaharaszti (a small village south of Budapest) out of 3,500. This also goes to show how unprepared Hungarian architecture is to earthquakes, unlike Japan for example. One of the reasons why the only atomic power plant of the country was built in Paks, south near the Serbian border was that anything nearer to the capital was not thought to be seismologically safe.

The psychic maintains that underground metro lines would have a mass catastrophe, and the center would be Gellért Hill across the building of the Parliament. Gellért Hill Thousands could die in a few minutes, possibly tens of thousands or more. Hungary would need international help like Nepal.
They were not certain if the northern part of Budapest would be affected (where I live for example), but Maria advised all her friends and students to be outside safe all day with their valuables and pets, or possibly even sell or move if someone lived near the affected areas. She arrived at the conclusion that the EQ would not happen exactly in the hour of the new moon (around 5 a.m.) but some time in the afternoon, for example around 13:30 p.m. I think the psychic also said she saw daytime, while the exact hour of the new moon is before dawn. (I must note that the 1956 EQ happened south of Budapest a few hours before the new moon, however.)

Now aside from the purely theoretical (but most interesting) nature of prediction, and within that, using oracles, astrology or not relying upon anything outside, this poses some practical questions as well as developing communications.

What can you do if you do not exclude that a collective event such as this can affect you? For a while I thought it was unlikely to happen so I kept silent about the subject. All I can think of is taking my dog, my computers and my most important records out for a day trip to somewhere nearby and to conclude an earthquake insurance - the rest pretty much falls out of practical consideration. My mother (80) lives in an old building near the center and she would probably disbelieve the whole thing - at most she would take a few hours outside after a lot of persuasion. Most of my friends, colleagues, family and almost everyone I know in Budapest would be affected and to most people the majority of their assets are concentrated in owning the very place where they live. I think that seismologically speaking, my residence can be regarded as a safer area (although based on what this psychic said, it would not necessarily be 100%). I live practically north of Budapest near the city limits in a 4-story housing project building. An architectural engineer said to me when I asked him about earthquakes that modern concrete construction was actually far better in terms of withstanding earthquakes than old brick or adobe buildings.

Yet this subject obviously takes much more forethought and preparation.

I remember that we discussed in these threads (probably it was during the WoT times) how true mediumistic experiences and information is never be able to nail events down to specifics like exact timing, since the nature of the astral world is very different, our consciousness there is also very different, and does not use most of our consensual coordinates like clock, calendar or geographical latitudes. Also, it seems that I worked out a way of the logical trap about how to communicate about this possible event. I advise people who hear about it to keep an open mind and watch internal signals. I cannot reject the entire matter off hand, neither can I "believe in it" which would be a sectarian way of thinking. Also, I think a few people with advanced powers can relieve some effects but obviously this has its limits.

A group of people (possibly including this psychic) created a Facebook page dedicated to the earthquake.

Astrologically, I have not studied earthquakes a lot (except the Tohoku earthquake in Japan using the chart of modern Japan), and I cannot draw clear conclusions like the Jyotish rules of seeing individual charts of women who are able to conceive about the more likely times to have a child born (there are pretty exact rules which were proven in over 1,000 charts of mothers I have seen since over a decade).

But at first glance many of the conditions are indeed similar as they were in January 1956 - and remember, that year later brought the bloody 1956 uprising. Which brings me to my next thought - back to the subject of the OP - Yukteswar and Yogananda maintained, as do many non-rational systems from shamanism up, including the Bible, that there is a connection between collective consciousness and mass catastrophes and they also hint at even humans possibly having some effect on it. The SRF people say that most people will understand the exact nature of this connection in Treta Yuga (the next age a few thousand years down the line).

Indeed, Paramahansa Yogananda was asked whether the increased powers of Dwapara (modern) man could lead to annihilation - in 1940, when WW2 was going on and research on nuclear weapons was already undergoing. (He said yes, but it was more likely that total destruction was avoided).

Next, I will describe my single dream about this subject which also leaves it pretty ambiguous.

reg, #23

I'm always utterly fascinated by your detailed accounts
of how you became what you are today. You and I have
very similar opinions on a great many issues, but you
seem to have a lot of specific information about how
you formed yours, and I have almost none about how I
formed mine. All I ever do is go into a psychic trance
state and either gain conscious access to past-life
or pre-life memories, or channel pre-verbal symbols
from my Spirit Guides that I then turn into words,
usually by writing them down. I started using typewriters
for this purpose around 1960, and home computers
when they first became available in the 70's.

Here are my comments on a few of the details in your
long message that especially impressed me:

re: "I have since a long time entertained the idea of
synchronicity as well as meaningful dreams, some of
which refer to an individual's 'archetypal' balance
through symbols, and some of which are concrete and
will happen. I have a few cases in my life when a
complete sequence of specific events about which I
had no conscious knowledge was shown to me, e.g.
my first day in the US which I dreamed about one
year before it happened, exactly as shown."

I don't remember ever having a dream that predicted
future events in detail, and fact all of my really
meaningful dreams have obviously fictional settings
peopled by a cast of characters with little
resemblance to anyone I've ever known on the physical
level. However, when I awaken from such dreams,
I tend to "remember" good answers to whatever
questions that have been concerning me the most
at that point in my life.


re: "It is possible though that placing more
emphasis upon direct contact with inner guides
or synchronicity would develop a more sensibility.
I am trying to focus on this more and more but
I also see that I access many intuitive powers
through looking at the mesh of natal astrology.
I also think that many things crystallize
conditionally and part of the universe in a
non-local way. It would be inorganic and
mechanical if we isolated an axis of time
in our thoughts and maintained that anything
relating to future probabilities is by definition
impossible until it actually happens."

This is also where I seem to be drifting
at this point near the end of a long life.
My contact with "inner guides" is all that
really keeps me going, and I'm content to
watch the future "crystalize conditionally"
in the Eternal Now.